The event was sponsored by Kansas Citizens for Science, the Mainstream Coalition Foundation and Kansas Families for Education. These groups have been labeled variously as moderate, liberal, and progressive in a state where the latter two descriptions are viewed with great suspicion by most voters and the first one usually generates a half-raised eyebrow.

Please note that all responses are paraphrases except for the direct quotes.

Charlie Griffin of Kansas State University's Center for Civic Discourse and Democracy was the evening's moderator. Griffin noted that the mission of the Institute is to increase involvement in the public process and to support respectful dialogue so that voters are well-informed.

Moderator:
Please introduce yourself, giving your name and the background you bring to educational policy.
Martin: I currently represent you on the state school board. I taught in Clay County schools, early primary grades and ran my own private preschool. I'm currently substitute teaching in three area districts. I hope to represent you for 4 more years.
Pannbacker: I'm a farmer from Washington County with a degree in veterinary medicine; I practiced for 7 years in St. Francis. My interest in the state school board goes back 20 years to when I was chair of Washington County extension council. Budget cuts forced the extension to cut 18 positions resulting in loss of expertise. The public school Vo-Ag offered a similar program, also tax-funded, but with considerably less expertise. This redundancy didn't make any sense to me. Fighting turf battles with tax money isn't efficient. Back then, the state board had a history of being in the shadows. Running for state board of education is on my "bucket list."
Renner: I've spent most of my life in education, growing up in Marshall county. I earned a BA 1978 then worked with at-risk youth. After Reagan's budget cuts, I had to find other employment so I taught English As A Foreign Language at the University of Naples, Italy. I'm active in educational organizations and I've written 2 textbooks. Back in the US, I'm now teaching grad courses specializing in English Language Learners, and I've worked with Kan-Ed project. I'm running because I believe in the possibilities that education opens up to our citizens. During the last 10 years, elements opposed to public education have been working to destroy free public education. In Italy, 8th graders choose technical school or college-prep and then parents must start paying for their education. Education necessary for democracy. Horace Mann saw common school as great equalizer and predicted that poverty would disappear and our nation would become richer. There's plenty of data correlating education & income; reading level at 2nd grade is large predictor of life outcomes - socioeconomic level, criminal convictions.

Moderator:
1. What are the key issues that you think the board of education needs to address?
Renner: Our teacher shortage in Kansas is connected to pay - we're 37^th in the nation. We have declining demographics across state so we have to figure out a way to deliver education to all kids. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) should be reauthorized but with great modifications. A school has 46 ways to be marked as failing, but only one way to succeed and that's by meeting all 46 of those criteria.
Pannbacker: Our most pressing issues are in staffing, particularly the quality of teachers. We should address this by looking at supply/demand by subject area and pay more for teachers in shortage areas. We must maximize productivity for tax $$$, keeping in mind the limited resources of our state treasury. I'm not part of the educational community, I have no agenda, I have no bias, but I have an open mind. I'd like to observe data and information to make best decisions.
Martin: Our most pressing issue is our teacher shortage. Kansas has 26,000 teachers licensed but not currently teaching in KS. The KSDE is developing a leadership path for teachers to get that endorsement and increase their pay while serving their schools. We need to look at delivering services around the state, virtual schools, keeping students engaged in body and mind via technical and applied activities along with core classes using problem-based learning. High school and middle school teachers tend to teach subjects instead of students and don't try to make their subjects relevant to students. [Martin obviously hasn't been in many high school or middle school classrooms, and she offered no data to support her contention -csa] Education already receives 2/3 of the state budget, so districts need to learn to use their money wisely.

2. What are *your* key priorities that distinguish you from the other candidates?
Pannbacker: NCLB was a noble effort w/unintended consequences.
Martin: NCLB gave every state the power to measure and define its own progress. We've done well in KS with local control. Standardized testing never told me anything about a child that I didn't already know. If the media would address NCLB as an accountability issue then teachers wouldn't have such a problem with it. Things are working out better under that law. Testing does take time away from teaching time in the spring; testing is just one part of a student's educational experience and shouldn't overwhelm the rest.
Renner: I'd like to work with legislature to fund public schools. Working on reforming NCLB because small districts will hit the wall where one or two students could cause the entire district to fail one of the 46 areas, meaning that the entire district is placed on the failing list. We need to adopt growth models where multiple criteria determine annual yearly progress (AYP). I'd like to address the teacher shortage - the few teachers we produce are lost to higher-paying states. We should set up a pipeline starting in about 5th grade to get more K12 students interested in teaching. We need to set up scholarships for education majors so they're not trying to pay off huge college loans with their 37^th-in-the-nation salaries.

Moderator:
3. Any additional comments on NCLB? How should it be reformed?
Martin: We need to be able to increase flexibility of testing in terms of who we test and course design. One good result of NCLB is that achievement gap has narrowed. A multi-tiered system of support for students of all abilities is being phased in. This system should decrease need for special ed if implemented very early on.
Pannbacker: We spend an inordinate amount of time with the lower-ability students compared to higher-potential students. We need to maximize ability of every student and keep in mind that some students have different abilities. Am I being politically correct?
Renner: AYP (annual yearly progress) & QPA (quality performance accreditation) are tied too closely. We need to take the emphasis off reading and place emphasis on social studies, civics, media literacy, needed for successful democracy. Reading is taught throughout the curriculum but NCLB doesn't support that.

Moderator
4. What can be done about disparities in educational outcomes to promote more equal outcomes?
Renner: Most disparities are related to socioeconomic factors. Middle-class families encourage reading, literacy. Economically disadvantaged families don't have the resources to do this, so these students aren't ready to read to learn when they enter school. We can work more with PATHs (Parents as Teachers) to get services to the populations with the greatest need.
Pannbacker: We must find ways to maximize every student's potential, recognizing their different capabilities. One of my helpers might not get past junior high; local school district didn't address his needs or help him meet his maximum potential. Other candidates have more experience in education; as an outsider, I can see and evaluate situations and ask "why are we doing what we're doing?"
Martin: We need to start working with kids earlier, I know this because I taught elementary school. 85% of Kansas districts are now offering all-day kindergarten.

5. Funding: Resources and educational system for the state. In general what is the KSBE's role in working to increase funding? Any particular upcoming issue?
Pannbacker: Another reason I'm running is because education appropriations resorted to a court case. I have problems with a non-elected body establishing funding levels. Communications apparently broke down between educators & legislation. Where did the breakdown occur? Where did the legislature lose confidence in the educational community that they funded education the way they did?
Renner: I will work with the legislature for more funding. In KS, teacher pay - 37^th in the nation - carries over into quality of teachers in the classroom. We need to think outside the box on issues of administration. Not to pick on Doniphan county, but this smallest Kansas county has 4 superintendents. In western KS - Mankato & Jewell shared superintendent and did so successfully. We can reduce some overhead costs to put into classroom instruction by using the educational service centers to help purchasing efficiency. Many districts need support to explore alternatives to petrol transportation. While the KSBE can't do a whole lot to influence funding, it can provide research and studies to help districts make decisions.
Martin: Already KS has the highest taxes in and region and the highest base state aid per pupil. Turf battle between Supreme Court and legislature. We should tie any changes in base state aid to the consumer price index. "School districts will have to learn to live within a budget." We should make district budgets more transparent, allow for more flexibility, more local control of budgets so that voters can decide where funding should be allocated.

6. Staffing:
Martin: Some schools still have teachers without KS licenses. Shortages in certain subjects & locales must be addressed by local districts. Wichita had 80 long-term subs at the beginning of last school year because of the shortage of licensed teachers. If we could "incent" those 26,000 licensed teachers in Kansas to get back into the profession it would go a long way to solving the problem.
Pannbacker: We should base pay on the law of supply and demand. Some disciplines are different standards to attain; we only graduated 2 physics teachers in state of KS in 2007. Folks gravitate to money, so use it to address shortage subjects. As far as subs go, it's whoever you can find.
Renner: Substitutes should have same requirements as regular teacher, because so many long-term subs are being used. Teacher pay - need to look at pipeline approach. Scholarship funds, loan programs; non-teaching male grad earns 60% more than teaching male. For college graduates, real dollar pay has dropped 18% for females and 9% for males. We need to combat the myth of short, easy teaching schedule and bring KS from 37th in the nation to within top 15 for pay. Texas average teaching salary is $70K, Kansas is $41K.

7. How do we teach science? How do we bring science standards into the classroom? How do we teach evolution, creationism, intelligent design, origin science? Please address very specifically.
Renner: I support the current science standards, especially mainstream evolutionary science. I understand that neither intelligent design nor young-earth creationism is scientifically legitimate. We do have a separation of religion and government; all religions have creation stories and we're a pluralistic society. In science, we study science. Study religion or anthropology or ID in social studies. I accept that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, that all life on earth shares a common ancestry. My life experiences have taught me that there's more than one way . . . . [sorry, lost this part - csa] Engaging in constructive dialogue supports the dignity of all involved.
Pannbacker: Only that scientific knowledge gained through accepted scientific protocols should be taught in public schools. Supernatural events shouldn't be taught as science - science is study of natural events. It is important that students understand different religions and tenets that we believe.
Martin: In 2004, this was the main issue in my first campaign. ["Evolution has been proven false. ID is science-based and strong in facts." -csa] In 2005 we approved objective standards. In 2007, the board changed and standards which support naturalism were adopted. All of the standards are voluntary for school districts and teachers to adopt. Where evolution is concerned - don't censor any scientific data and if it's derived by using scientific methods, it should be allowed even if it doesn't support naturalism. Supporting naturalism violates church/state separation. There's a difference between historical vs. empirical evidence, where evidence isn't 100% proof there's room for all viewpoints to be allowed.

8. Kitzmiller decision - are there lessons we've learned from the court decision? To what degree should our BOE be defining science curriculum?
Pannbacker: The function of education is to produce an informed electorate - if we would teach science in 4 different areas - energy, environment, food, health - and keep coming back to those, we'd have a well informed electorate. Two words: "Sunflower" and "ethanol."
Renner: The science standards were developed by science teachers; the state board chose to accept or modify what teachers brought forth. The board should rely on the knowledge base of teachers. Since the teachers said evolution should be included, the state board should accept that. As far as Kitzmiller case, that case threw out the creationist approach to science. Afterward, that school board was thrown out, the school board which cost the district $1 million to push political agenda. That's not a proper use of tax monies. We should accept the recommendations of teachers.
Martin: There many different areas in science and no perfect standards exist. The current standards were largely developed by teachers, but there were also professionals. "I see two different issues - microevolution versus macroevolution." [this remark gave rise to numerous chuckles from the audience, which I found out later was comprised of many KSU biology faculty. - csa]

9. If district or teacher is uncomfortable teaching standards, to what degree should local staff have the option to opt out of the state standards?
Martin: The state standards are voluntary and districts do not have to follow them. The problem is that for the state science assessment certain topics - the "deltas" - need to be addressed for success. Community should decide.
Pannbacker: Again, since the goal of education is to produce an informed electorate - if we're teaching things not in accordance to electorate then the voters can change the folks who are making those decisions.
Renner: The electorate must be informed; parents need to know if evolution isn't being taught because this places kids at a later disadvantage.

10. Sex ed: abstinence-only or abstinence-plus?
Renner: Oh, I get this first, eh? Well, I'm a certified sexuality instructor. There's substantial evidence showing the effectiveness of comprehensive sex ed - age appropriate and abstinent - developmentally appropriate, resisting peer pressure. Although the parents are primary educators, I've learned that parents need support. Abstinence is 100% effective birth control. The problem is that "young people aren't always thinking of 100% effective approaches." We need to "encourage them to delay sexual activity. Mass media sexualizes everything; it's a challenge to give young people quality information." 2007 research shows that our federal government pumped over $1 billion into abstinence-only programs that aren't working.
Pannbacker: Our society can invest in education. We also invest in welfare, food stamps, and prisons. Students need to understand what's going on. "To me, sex education is called biology."
Martin: The Kansas legislature no longer requires sex education. This should be taught at home, and it's unfortunate that we're teaching sex education in the public schools. We should be teaching that students should abstain until marriage, and then remain faithful to their spouse. In Kansas it's against the law for students to have sex; we shouldn't promote using condoms, given the 85% failure rates of condoms. [According to the Centers for Disease Control, condoms are 85%-98% effective in preventing pregnancy. -csa]

11. Homeschooling, private schools, virtual schools . . . are you comfortable with the current leadership and vision of the KSDE?
Martin: We do have a knowledgeable, energetic commissioner. Her expertise is in special education, but she's also emphasized technology and we're moving in the right direction.
Pannbacker: Although I've heard bad things about the state board of education, I have not heard leadership of KSDE criticized at all, recently. For an outsider, it's a comforting thought to know we have dedicated people doing their best for our interest.
Renner: "Given that she had to clean up Bob Corkins' mess, she's done a heckuva job." [applause at this - csa]

12. Please give 5-minute closing statement: What would distinguish you as a candidate for this position?
Renner: I've had a lifelong passion for education. I'm a Sunday school teacher, and have a radio program through which I educate the public. I am completely committed to education. Education is a lifelong process, 2010 commission, preK20 initiative. KS is very interconnected with the world today; must be working, make sure kids have skills and knowledge to be part of this world. Education in Kansas has lots of issues, and we need creativity; I see the board as being that agent to insure our young people will have the quality education they need to be creative and think outside the box to solve these problems. When I was growing up in a small town, one of the businessmen would occasionally give us kids a $50 bill with the words "now get out of the county for awhile." Our kids need to experience the world, then come back and share. I'm a strong advocate for education, kids, and teacher.
Pannbacker: I'm not an extemporaneous speaker, all I have is sweaty palms instead of notes in front of me like the other candidates. The demographics of KS education are changing. I had 1 grandparent graduate from high school. After 8 years of education, my grandma was teaching at the age of 16. They moved away from that district so that their kids could go to better schools. Education is important to my family; both of my own kids are elementary education majors specializing in science. I asked my son, "when are you taking chemistry?" "It's not required, Dad." "Oh yes it is!" He needs to have that broad base in science and go the extra mile. I bring a different viewpoint as an education consumer; our businesses consume what Kansas schools produce. We must find creative ways to address the challenges we have. St. Francis - Cheylin - went to a 4 day week, saved money with no loss of productivity. There are folks out there who have good ideas, and the state board should use these.
Martin: Kansas has excellent public schools. We rank in the top 10 of all national measures. Sometimes we miss the mark - it's the students that are important. ["We are not going to give up until the standards say what we want them to say." ". . . I've not read [the draft of the science standards] word for word myself." -csa] We need to support parents who decide public education isn't for their kids. Local control should determine controversial issues. I have experience, and common sense because I know what's happening in classrooms.

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No matter which candidate you prefer - pro-science folks know who shouldn't be on the state board of education - we can be grateful to the folks at Kansas Citizens for Science, Mainstream Coalition and Kansas Families for Education Foundation for sponsoring this series of discussions around the state. Props to Keith Miller, Mike Herman and Bruce Glymour for their legwork in getting this event set up.

Added in edit: About 60 people attended, aside from the candidates and the organizers.

[edited for clarity]